Transcript
You’re listening to “In Sickness,” a podcast about caregiving, with Allison Breininger and Justin Bajema.
Allison: Good morning. Justin.
Justin: Good morning. Allison, I’m excited that we have with us our very first guest for 2025 Yes, we have with us today. Jacqueline Vlietstra.
Allison: Yes, you and I were talking recently about how we should do an episode on fight, flight, freeze, nervous system stuff and how that relates to caregiving, because we talk about that a lot. And as we were talking about that, I realized that you know, you and I have experienced that certainly, probably on a daily basis in our own lives, but that I knew I know personally, an expert, kind of, in this field. And so as soon as I said that, I thought, Okay, we got to reach out to Jacqueline. And so Jacqueline, we are so excited that you’re here. Thank you and welcome.
Jacqueline: Thank you. I’m so glad to be here
Justin: Jacqueline, it’s great to meet you. Can you tell us a little bit about your background related to the topic of nervous system regulation, and what it is about your work that encouraged Allison to have you on today?
Jacqueline: Sure, so I am a certified yoga therapist, and I would say pretty much all of my work is nervous system based. So yoga therapists work with the body, the mind, the sort of energy and breath of our clients, and the nervous system is where all of that intersects. And it’s interesting to me, because you know, Yoga has a 1000 year old history of understanding human well being in this way, this very kind of comprehensive way that encompasses mind and body and spirit. And, you know, I think in our culture, we’re just coming to understand that, and there’s a really renewed, or maybe new interest in the nervous system, and an understanding that our nervous systems regulate and sort of facilitate our well being. And you know, I can, I’ll go more into that as we discuss it, but yeah, I’ve worked with and I started when I was a brand new yoga teacher. Back in 2009 I worked in an eating disorder treatment program, and I got a crash course in nervous system, 101, and in, specifically in how chronic stress and trauma impact people’s nervous systems and their ability to function and connect with other people and connect with themselves. And I did that work for six years, and it was just amazing to see the influence of yoga on eating disorder treatment and on the experiences of people who, in many cases, were not so comfortable. You know, I think of maybe a yoga class that people choose to go to. And, you know, they leave, and they say, Oh, I feel so good. And oh, this was so relaxing and so wonderful. But for people who have eating disorders, in particular, because that was my experience. A lot of times, the body is not, not necessarily feeling like a safe place to go. And so it was even more important in that setting to really focus on nervous system regulation, rather than having this expectation that it was going to be this relaxing, enjoyable experience for everyone.
Allison: And it was actually that background that when I first met you, because there’s sort of a joke in the, like, chronic illness cancer caregiving community about, have you tried yoga? Like, you know, it’s one of those things that people are like, have you tried? Have you tried essential oils? Have you tried, you know? And it’s sort of like, Oh, please, you know. And I think it’s because people think it’s going to be this one size fits all this, like, of course, if you just do yoga for 10 minutes, your cancer will go away, right? So there’s kind of this joke there and but the thing that that drew me to you when you and I first met was that you have this, this background in trauma is really and around, not just like a regular old yoga class, which can be powerful in its own way, but in seeing like how yoga can really benefit people who are going through chronic illness, through really, really hard times. And so before we get into that, remind me because you, you reached out to me because you sort of were, you were hoping to support caregivers. Is that right? Remind me how this all started.
Jacqueline: Well, we have a mutual friend who connected us and, um, and, yeah, I mean, I, I guess, well, I’ve always, from the very beginning of my yoga teacher training, I knew that I wanted to work in some kind of therapeutic context, and what I’ve as I moved through my experience as a yoga instructor, and then later as a yoga therapist, I began to see, well, for lack of a better term, the negative spaces where yoga or just really other kinds of support aren’t showing up to the people who need it. And I thought about caregivers back when I was doing my certification training, and just thought, you know, everybody’s looking out for the patients, the people who are receiving the care, but what about the caregivers? And it’s really just a wonderful serendipity that I was able to connect with you and that this is what you do, because I really want to connect and support people who are connecting with and supporting others.
Allison: Yes, We’re so grateful for that. I mean, you basically just said our mission statement right right there and so, and I’m glad, yeah, I’m glad we sort of were able to lay the framework of that, because I don’t want people to start this episode sort of rolling their eyes, of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I should do yoga, right? But it is one of the things where it’s like, this isn’t just, this isn’t just like, your corner shop, yoga place, right? Like you have specialized in this. And also it is one of those things where it’s like, oh, shoot, it works, right? It’s like, the thing that people are recommending, and then you do it, you’re like, oh, actually, it works. So yeah, well, let’s get into some of the basics here. So, you know, I feel like we hear a lot around, like, fight, flight, freeze. Sometimes I hear like, rest and digest. And sometimes people, you know, talk about the nervous system. So can you give us a little bit of a 101, like, what’s not, not necessarily yet related to caregiving, but just in general, tell us about, teach us a little bit about our nervous systems and those terms. Okay,
Jacqueline: The understanding of how our nervous systems work have evolved in recent years. The previous understanding that we all kind of maybe internalized from, you know, science class in high school, or just common cultural knowledge, is that we had two branches of our nervous system, the sympathetic and the parasympathetic. And sympathetic was fight, flight and freeze and or fight or flight and sympathetic was rest and digest. And there was a belief that this was this sort of binary thing. There is now an understanding that was, it was created by Dr Stephen Porges, and it’s called the polyvagal theory. And he created this theory in his lab work, but it has since been brought to bear on like our just greater understanding of how our nervous systems operate actually, which is that we have something called our vagus nerve, which starts in at the in our brain stem and moves down through our torso. It connects to every part of our internal organs. It, it regulates our stress hormones. It regulates our heart rate, our digestion, our immune system, and it’s controlled by the autonomic nervous system. So this is autonomic means automatic. So this is always happening in the background of our existence. Is our autonomic nervous system is always asking one single question, which is, Am I safe? And depending on the answer, and that’s something that it’s not something you’re thinking, it’s something that happens instantaneously in the background in your body, and depending on the answer to that question, your body will function differently. So if the answer is yes, I am safe, that’s then you’re in what’s known as a ventral vagal state, or a regulated state, and that is your parasympathetic nervous system that rest and digest system. That’s where we are able to connect with other people. That’s where we are feeling safe, at ease present. That’s where creativity lives, and that is a state that we come into and go out of. A healthy nervous system will not stay in that ventral vagal state. It will come in and it will go out, depending on the circumstances. So if your nervous system determines that you are not safe, you will move into the sympathetic state. That’s a mobilized nervous system that is mobilized to take action. So that’s that fight or flight. That’s also where anger lives, where anxiety lives. That’s, that’s, I’m ready to go. I’m ready to act. And one thing to know about these states is they’re not bad, like we, we need that. We need to take action. You know, the sort of classic example of our ancestors running from a saber toothed Tiger. You know, that’s how our nervous system evolved. But of course, we don’t live in that kind of world anymore. So our stressors might be that someone cuts us off in traffic, it might be that we get an email that causes us stress. It could be that we have an argument with a friend or loved one. Those things can trigger that sense of I’m not safe, which, again, is not cognitive, and put us into that sympathetic fight or flight. Now, what the polyvagal theory tells us is that this is all a hierarchy, meaning, like we always go through the same pattern of moving through nervous system states, no matter what the triggers are. So if we are in that sympathetic, aroused state of I’m not safe danger, and our nervous system determines that we cannot fight or flee our way out of it, then we move into the dorsal vagal state, which is an immobilized nervous system so that is shut down, collapse, disconnection, hopelessness, it can look like depression. So if we think about, you know, the nervous system’s evolution, and we think about, you know, say, there’s this, you know, antelope running from the saber tooth tiger, and it runs, but then it can’t, it can’t outrun the tiger, and it, it goes into, like it plays dead. It goes into a collapsed state, and that’s because its nervous system that’s like the state of last resort for the nervous system. I can’t handle this, so I’m going to go into this freeze. And it’s not a choice, it’s what the nervous system does automatically.
Allison: So I would love to, just because here on the podcast, I’ve talked about how I have suffered from migraines, and, you know, just recently, was able to find some medication that is supporting me, and you personally have been supporting me with this. But I think if I can and correct me if I’m wrong, but just use my own experience with this is that what I have found is that when I have a number of days in a row in which I am in my the fight or flight, and just go, go, go, that the migraine for me is sort of my body’s way of like, shutting down. It’s like, yeah, it’s been too much, too much, and we cannot anymore. You cannot. And then it’s just like the migraine comes on and I just have to stop, is that, am I accurate? Is that sort of a description of, like the hierarchy in the latter, and how that has showed up? And I think it’s interesting, because when I’ve heard so, there’s rest and digest, right, which is a really healthy sort of, I don’t want to say shut down, but, you know, resting. And then there’s the, and I’m sorry I’m not great with the terms, is it dorsal fatal? Is that the one that is like, shut down, shut down, right? I’m not choosing this. It’s like, my body is choosing it for me. It’s not like it’s like, boom. Have to rest. Right? That accurate?
Jacqueline: Absolutely. So yeah. So there are actually two branches of the parasympathetic, parasympathetic nervous system. And one is rest and digest, healthy immune function all as well. And then the other is the dorsal vagal shutdown. So that’s where it’s just a little more complicated than the Oh, it’s either rest or digest or fight or flight.
Allison: Jacqueline, there’s this statistic that every time I hear you say it, it blows my mind newly. So can you share the 20% statistic that you’ve shared with me before?
Jacqueline: Yes. So we have nerves that go from body to brain and brain to body. And you know, we think our brains are in charge and that our body’s kind of just following along, but in terms of how our nervous system works, 80% of the information that’s being communicated by our nerves is being communicated from body to brain. Now. Hmm, only 20% of the information is coming from brain to body. So you know, when we think about, like, how these practices impact our nervous system, even thinking about a really simple breathing practice called straw breathing, where you blow out through your mouth, like you’re blowing out through a straw. It’s such a simple practice that you can do anywhere, and that’s a practice that, of course, is happening in our body. But if you do that, you can notice that not only will it potentially impact your body to feel more calm, more relaxed, but you might also notice that your brain, your your thoughts, quiet down, or you feel a sense of being more settled, so that you know that 80/20 is just an important thing to keep in mind, because the body is really where we’re experiencing our nervous system state, and it’s driving the stories that we’re telling ourselves about what’s happening in our lives.
Justin: Let’s connect all of this to caregiving. Unfortunately, caregivers experience moments of emergency, all too often, moments when they have to make split decisions or jump into action. For example, if our person falls, what happens in our nervous systems during those emergency situations?
Jacqueline: So you’re going into a sympathetic date. That’s survival mode, that’s jump into action and take whatever action is needed. And that’s you know, we can discuss how this plays out when it’s chronic, but, you know, ideally, that’s a state that you come into and then you go back out of. And I think the tricky part comes when you are constantly exposed to those kinds of stressors, and your nervous system doesn’t really have a chance to recover.
Allison: yeah, right. Tell us physically, like, what does that feel like? Like, let’s say, right now, all of a sudden, I hear a crash upstairs. I hear that it’s Sean, right. I go running right, and I’m in that thing. What? What? What might it feel like, physically in my body, to be in that state, and I will, your heart will be different for other people.
Jacqueline: There’s certain things that are kind of universal, but your heart rate is you’re going to pick up right, and you’re going to, you’re going to pull your body’s going to pull energy away from your prefrontal cortex, your thinking mind, you’re gonna, your body’s not going to be focused on things like, you know, digestion or immune function. You’re going to have all your energy going to focus on addressing the emergency. So, you know, it’s just going to feel like a very mobilized, very like, action oriented state, if that makes sense.
Allison: So what if, like, and so let’s pretend I’m not a chronic caregiver right now. It’s just like a fluke thing that happens. And then let’s say I get up there and he’s like, Oh, actually, I’m okay. Everything’s okay, right? So what happens to my nervous system after the emergency has subsided.
Jacqueline: Ideally, your heart rate will calm down. You’ll sort of see him and say, Oh yeah, I see you’re okay. And you’ll start to feel yourself calm down. You’ll feel a sense of going from something’s wrong, somebody I love is not safe to he is safe. And you’re going to feel that in your body, like your nervous system is always asking this question, Am I safe? Am I safe? And that extends to your loved ones. And it’s, you know, it’s you’re taking in information. And as you take in that information, like, okay, he’s fine. It turns out it wasn’t. It was nothing. He just stubbed his toe. Okay? Then, then you’re, you know, if your nervous system is flexible and resilient, then you’ll just sort of, you can come back to that ventral, vagal, or regulated state when the emergency turns out not to be an emergency.
Allison: You just said something really important that I want to highlight. You said that question, Am I safe? Also connects to our loved ones, yes. So are you saying that my brain or my nervous system is always asking, Is Sean safe? Is Sean safe? Is Sean safe, and probably also is Maya safe? Is Maya safe, like am I? Is my nervous system always asking that question about the two of them as well?
Jacqueline: Yes. I mean your nervous system is designed to keep you safe, right? I mean that autonomic. There’s not a lot of nuance there. It’s just, am I safe? Am I safe? But, but for sure, when you’re experiencing a threat to those immediately closest to you, to your loved ones, then your nervous system is going to treat it as a threat. So, so, I mean, you, you probably know what that feels like, right? That feeling of like, of course, you do that feeling of like something’s wrong, and you can feel it in your body, your fear for Sean safety shows up in your body. It’s not a thought, it’s a nervous system response.
Allison: I think that’s a really important distinction to make, right? Is that originally we talked about the question, Am I safe? And I think that as caregivers, that extends to our person, right? Yes, because I might be like, Well, I’m perfectly safe down here. I’m not too worried about, you know, how I’m feeling today, whatever, but I’m always worried about how he’s doing, you know, and so in extension by extension, that I’m also asking that question.
Justin: So we talk a lot here on the podcast about how caregivers often live in a heightened state of vigilance, and that can be for years at a time. And I think Allison and I can both relate to that from different times in our lives, just feeling like there is no space where you can let things wind down, and you’re just constantly just on alert. So how do we get to that state? How does that fit into this whole nervous system? And what are, I guess, the impacts of, you know, being in that heightened state for such an extended period of time?
Jacqueline: So ou get in that state from exactly what you just described, that chronic stress that keeps you, keeps your nervous system, in that survival state, that mode of I’m not safe, my my person is not safe. And we know that living with chronic stress and trauma can cause your nervous system to get stuck in a survival state. So when we think about hyper vigilance now, hyper vigilance in the moment is an important part of a healthy nervous system’s ability to respond to a threat. But hyper vigilance that never gets a chance to pause, to release itself when the danger has abated, because maybe it feels like the danger never abates. That can cause anxiety. It can cause a whole host of physical conditions, chronic pain, illness. So, yeah, so it makes it makes sense that if you’re never feeling if you’re, let me rephrase that, if your nervous system is never feeling safe enough, it doesn’t have to feel 100% safe, but if it loses the capacity to feel safe enough to even have like a tiny foothold in safety, then that’s that’s where it can get stuck in that survival mode. So another way to to understand this is that we all have what’s known as a window of tolerance, a window of tolerance where we can stay pretty much, okay, so the window of tolerance is where we feel, where our nervous system is regulated, and things happen all the time to kick us out of that window of tolerance. If your nervous system is resilient and flexible, you’ll come out of the window of tolerance for any number of reasons and then you’ll come back in. When your nervous system gets stuck in survival mode, you get stuck outside of the window of tolerance, and it’s very difficult to come back in. And we know that chronic stress and trauma make the window of tolerance smaller, so it takes less and less to kick us out.
Allison: Yeah, I’m thinking even if, again, if I ever heard a crash right now, right? If I had not been a caregiver for the last 14 years, I’d be like, Oh, cool. I mean, some just happened, but whatever, right? But because I have been in my window, I would guess is small, I’m working on it, right? But so I might hear that crash and just go into like, I. The mode of like, “okay.” You know, I can just imagine my brain, like, my brain does this thing where all of a sudden it’s like, well, that was probably this, which means this, which means this, which means this, right? I just like, go there right away, right? And so thinking about, like, whereas a neighbor who hasn’t been in this situation is just like, oh, that just must have been the dog or something, right? And so, yes, I think one is that an example of what you’re talking about with the window tolerance.
Jacqueline: Our nervous system becomes sensitized.
Allison: So when I because, you know, I’ve heard about, you know, all of this nervous system and things like, exactly what you just said about the impacts on caregivers and long term and being all of that, and but everything, until I met you, everything I saw around that was basically like, yeah, caregivers, you’re doomed. Like, it was just like, Oh no, you’re in this thing, and it’s gonna happen, and it’s gonna keep happening. And so good luck, right? And so it always felt really deflating to me. And so I wonder if, just even hearing what you were just saying about like, yeah, when you’ve been in this for a long time and you continue to be on this, here’s what’s going to happen to your body, if it is maybe feeling deflating to our listeners. And so tell me absolutely, is there any hope for those of us knowing that we’re in this, monsters are in this for the long haul, right? So our life circumstances are not going to change. And in fact, for a lot of us, there’s only going to get harder, potentially. And so is there hope for our nervous systems?
Jacqueline: There is.
Allison: Everybody just took a big breath there, if they didn’t, yeah, listening five minutes ago, right?
Jacqueline: I’m so glad you asked that question, because you are not broken. And I think there can be this feeling of like nothing can fix me. And the beautiful, I think, as we understand the nervous system, the beautiful thing we can understand is that we don’t need fixing, that it’s about really just meeting ourselves where we are, and offering ourselves opportunities to build that internal sense of safety in whatever way is going to support our own nervous system and everybody. Every nervous system is different, but there are things that you can do to help support your nervous system in both coming back into the window of tolerance and also widening the window of tolerance, even when you are still exposed to the Chronic threat or disruption to your nervous system of caregiving.
Allison: I think I just want you to, I Just you saying, caregivers, you are not broken. Because I will just speak for myself. I mean, you and I have had a lot of conversation about this, where I was basically like, I’m doomed. Like, this body has gone through a lot. It’s gonna go through more. I’m broken. Fix it, right? And, you know? And so like, just hearing, I know, I don’t know about others, but for me to hear someone who is an expert in this field say, you’re not broken, it’s like what really, you know? And so I just like, I think that I would just really want caregivers to hear that, that yes, we are in hard situations, yes, our bodies are our nervous systems are being impacted by those hard situations we’re in, and we’re not broken. We’re not broken, and that there are things that we can do to support ourselves and that others can do to support us. So I just think I want people to hear that.
Jacqueline: There’s a term. It’s an, it comes from ancient Greece, and it’s called eudaimonia. And it’s a, it means, it means sort of well being, or, yeah, well being, despite whatever might be happening in your life. I butchered that definition, but that’s that’s the gist of it, and it’s an understanding that, yeah, there’s so much that you cannot control, sure, and so much in your life that is difficult and maybe painful, and you can still have some eudaimonia, some well being, some ability to stay connected to yourself and present to what’s happening and not be simply swept up by it.
Allison: Hmm, that’s beautiful, yeah, because I think that for so long I’ve been stuck in the thought of the opposite of that, like there is no chance of well being as long as my life circumstances are going to remain like this, and there’s nothing I can do about my life circumstances like this is going to be it. Therefore there’s no chance at well being like it just isn’t going to happen. And so to know to have a term that says actually it’s possible to have well being, even in the midst of hard things, right? Is that essentially, what the word is is beautiful, because I appreciate that caregiving is getting a little more, you know, pieces in the news and all of that. But I find that either they’re just like, sweet little like, oh, you know, text positivity articles, or they’re like, caregivers are doomed. They’re higher rates of all the things and good luck. And so to sort of have this, this middle ground of no this, these are things are happening, and you still have an opportunity for well. Your own well being is just like, oh, to me, I don’t Justin, can you hop in? How do you How does that? Any of that sit with you?
Justin: Yeah, I mean, certainly I’ve been in times when Sarah was very sick where it’s like, This is it. And it feels like, you know, the only way out is through. There’s not, it’s not going to get any better for me, so we just have to plow ahead, and certainly with already having a predisposition to anxiety and dealing with that even before Sarah got sick. You know, I have lived in a heightened state for long periods of time, and it’s been rough for sure, yeah? Hearing that that’s not doesn’t mean I’m broken. And I’ve talked about this with therapists too, that my nervous system is doing what it’s supposed to, but it gets, it’s just kind of stuck, yeah? And so yeah, I think that that’s an important takeaway for the caregivers listening is that, I guess it’s a, it’s a point of hope that there is work that can be done to kind of navigate that. And that’s what I was kind of my next question was, Jacqueline, you mentioned like you can, like learning how to or training yourself, or, I don’t know what it is to kind of both come back down into the window of tolerance, but also how to widen the window of tolerance. And I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit. As far as you know, Is there things in the moment that are helpful, and then are there things like long term that we can kind of put into practice on a daily basis that will help us over time, maybe expand that window and help us in that way.
Jacqueline: Absolutely. So there are a lot of things in the moment, and there are a lot of things long term. And like I said a moment ago, every nervous system is different. So what works for one person isn’t going to be necessarily the ideal thing for the next. But yes, I want to, just before I go into these things that can be done, I just want to say that we live in a culture that tells us that we need to fix ourselves and so. And I think, you know, there can be like, of course, we want to feel better. Nobody wants to feel terrible. And there can be this sense of like, how do I fix this? How do I fix this? And then it becomes another thing on your list, of like, I actually am broken, and it fuels that story of, I need to be I need to do something, because this is intolerable, and what our nervous system needs most is for us to just be with what is instead of trying to fix it so it’s, it’s a subtle distinction. I mean, there are these things that we can do, but also how we do them, and the sort of intent with which we do them matters, because our nervous system knows if we’re trying to fix it, and so then it’s just another I’m not safe moment that we’re actually doing to ourselves. So I say that as a sort of background to all of this, that the most important thing we can learn to do is be with how we feel, to acknowledge it, and to really sense and feel into our bodies. There’s such an important role that talk therapy plays in healing. And you know, my background is in yoga, and this understanding that we leave the body behind at our peril, that we can’t really heal without also connecting in some way to our bodies.
Allison: People can’t see me, but I’m pointing at myself, because that’s so me, right? I’m a doer. We talk a lot about the Enneagram here. I’m a three and so I’m like, give me the checklist. I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna do it by tomorrow, right? And so it’s such a good reminder that that also doesn’t make my nervous system feel safe when I take that approach and so. So finding that balance of, there is something that can be done, but it’s not like this must be done so you can be fixed. It’s more like, oh, you know, this can be done.
Jacqueline: How do I show up for myself in this moment? How do I feel more connected to myself? How do I support myself? So there’s this idea of sort of being with ourselves, being with our nervous system. You know, understanding your nervous system is doing what it is designed to do to keep you safe. Yeah, it’s but then, you know, using certain, you know, figuring out, like, what kind of tools do support you well, and inviting them as a way, as a form of support, but not a form of fixing, so which, as I say, that I feel like, well, are people, is that going to make sense? Like it’s subtle, but it’s all about kind of how you’re approaching yourself, yeah? A form of support, not a form of fixing.
Allison: That’s a powerful statement.
Jacqueline: So Justin, I haven’t answered your question. I’ve given a big caveat.
Justin: What you’ve shared so far, is, I think, a really great perspective on this.
Jacqueline: In terms of what kinds of practices and tools can help, I would say the number one piece is awareness, you know, starting to really notice what’s happening in your body as you’re experiencing whatever it is you’re experiencing. So awareness is a huge piece. There’s another huge piece, which is co-regulation, which we haven’t talked about yet, and that is that our nervous systems don’t exist in a vacuum. We are always relating to the nervous systems of those around us, and we can notice, like on a broader social level, there’s the sense of like, dysregulation in the population, maybe dysregulation in our social fabric, and we, we respond to each other, we we show up and we impact other people, how we show up and then how other people impacts us. So we see that on a macro level, maybe culturally or even globally, in terms of our individual relationships, being able to connect, and that means visually. Just seeing somebody else’s face, like we, our nervous system, takes cues of safety from somebody else’s face, what’s happening around the eyes, what’s happening around the mouth, even things like heads ahead nodding when we’re talking to someone, we take that our nervous system below our conscious awareness is taking that in as a cue of safety the sounds of other people’s voices. So there’s a range of sound that is conveying cues of safety to my nervous system from yours. And if you started shouting at me, or if you used like a monotone voice, my nervous system would pick up on that and feel less safe. So there’s the co-regulation piece is really important. So that’s also, you know, relying on friends and family calling a friend when I’m stressed out, getting a hug from a loved one when I need it. So that’s a big piece of regulation. Is co regulation. Touch is huge. So it’s not just the touch of another, of course, a hug, we know can be very soothing, but even if you just for a moment, cross your arms and and put your hands on the sides of your upper arms, so if people listening, can just even try that of hugging your own arms and pause for a second and and feel if that is impacting your nervousness. What did you notice?
Allison: Did you tell me once that, or someone told me that, like my body doesn’t know that these are my hands, like it just knows I’m your nervous system, yeah?
Jacqueline: Your mind knows. Your mind knows it’s your arms, but your nervous system doesn’t, which is incredible, right?
Allison: That’s just so isolating, right? And so even I’m thinking, sitting in the ER room, sitting in the wherever, being like, I, you know, it’s cold or it’s too germy to be out in the world, and so, like, you know, we can do this for ourselves. We can provide comfort for ourselves in this simple way. Yeah,
Jacqueline: I just want to offer a couple of others, just because touch and co-regulation are really important. But there’s also movement. Many, many different kinds of movement. Like one person will want to go for a run, and that’s very regulating to their nervous system. Another person might want to dance, or even just simple movements that you can do, you know, without committing to any sort of exercise routine of just rocking, like just a simple rocking side to side. Is really, you know, we think about, if someone hands you a crying baby, what do you instinctively do? You don’t stand still, right? You might bounce the baby. You might rock and side to side. Our nervous systems respond to that. Being in nature is an important one as well, connecting with music, listening to music. For some people, it might be going to an art museum and looking at the art there. So, you know, everybody’s going to find different practices and then that kind of help anchor their nervous system. So these are practices, just to come back to your question, Justin that in the moment, can help soothe your nervous system and remember the goal is we’re not trying to, like, keep ourselves in that regulated state all the time, is to remind our nervous system as often as we can. Oh, I know what safety feels like safety is accessible in my nervous system. I can get there, even if it’s for a split second, even if it’s just the tiniest taste of safety. I can. I can experience that, and that’s over the long term, how we can start to widen that window is to just kind of continue to increase our experiences of safety, to feel safe enough to come back into that window and maybe let it open a little bit wider.
Justin: I I just love how approachable the examples you’ve given are, like giving yourself a hug, listening to music, stepping outside like those are small things that I think are easier for someone who feels like their life is so full as a caregiver to take on, as opposed to, I don’t know, starting some complicated meditation practice or whatever it is to try to like that You got to carve out time for but it’s just in those moments, just taking taking a breath and, you know, doing something simple, to kind of remind yourself that you’re safe, and to remind yourself what safety feels like. I think that’s really, yeah, an important thing for those of us who don’t spend as much time in that window as we would like to work on.
Allison: I’ve been trying to pay attention to when I am in a safe moment, because I can tend to be like, but what about what has just happened, or what’s happening? And instead to be like, Wow, wait a minute. Look around. I’m safe. I’m safe, he’s safe. We’re safe. And like to notice those moments and to, you know, and to, like, remind myself of that and to acknowledge those.
Jacqueline: That’s so important. I just want to say one thing that’s so important, because I think that happens all the time, where we are so driven by this, this state, this survival state, that we don’t notice those moments of safety or those moments of okayness, and so those just freeze right past us. And so a huge part of widening your window is to start to notice those moments of safety or okayness and and and so you’re tuning in and just noticing, where am I? Where am I in terms of the window of tolerance? Am I in that sympathetic state? Am I in that shut down dorsal vagal state, or am I feeling more regulated and being able to identify that you’re always moving through states, but sometimes it feels like nothing ever changes.
Justin: Yeah, and as caregivers, were very often very attuned to being aware of what our person is. What their state is, yeah, you know, how are they feeling? Are they safe? So it’s like, we kind of know how to do that awareness piece. We just have to turn it back on ourselves.
Allison: Really good point.
Jacqueline: So important, that’s, that’s yeah, that’s it, that’s it.
Justin: Yeah
Allison: And thinking about that co-regulation to pay attention to, if our person is agitated, if our person is whatever like, how is that impacting us? And vice versa, you know? And so noticing that as well, I wanted to make sure we went back for just a second to sort of that shut down state, because I feel like we sort of breezed through that. And just because sometimes I talk to caregivers who are like, I can’t, I can’t, I am done. I can’t, I’m done, I’m done, I’m done, I cannot move forward, right? And to me, that sounds like that shut down state, absolutely we talked about in my life. It’s migraines. Justin, you’ve been really open on the podcast about you’ve gone through seasons of depression, you know. And so can we just spend a minute here, there about, what about when you’re in that space? Like is, are there different tools, or is it the same tool? Or, how can we, because that can feel, I think a hard part about that is, when you’re shut down, it also feels like I got nothing right, like to take any kind of action or notice things feels even harder in that state. So can you talk about that for a minute? a minute?
Jacqueline: I’m so glad you asked that question, because it is different when you’re in that shutdown state. Basically your nervous system is in conservation mode, like there is no energy in your system. And so that feeling of, I have nothing, that’s your nerve, I mean, your nervous system, that’s what your nervous system is doing, is literally taking all of the energy to keep you serve in survival, rather than than than action. In those cases, it is very hard to do something because your nervous system has no has no energy. I think the most helpful thing is to think about really small things that aren’t necessarily even doing so, for example, even being able to reflect for a moment on a time when you felt okay or you felt connected to Another person. So for example, maybe you know, letting someone come and watch a movie with you, if or listen or put on, you know, let someone put the music on that you know, maybe, is soothing, and just allowing yourself to sort of experience that, but not having to, like do. So. And you know, sometimes, sometimes that person is there, sometimes that person isn’t there, and even the idea of reaching out feels beyond what you can do. That’s where imagining can sometimes be really powerful. So even imagining sending a text, if sending a text is too much, or, you know, just maybe looking out your window and seeing that cars, I don’t know where you are Justin, but where I can look out, I can see cars go by, and just understanding that there, that there’s this opportunity to connect, even if I’m not able to do it in this moment, the tiniest, tiniest shifts. I mean, we’re talking imagining texting a friend or looking out your window. Sometimes that’s literally all we have capacity for and that’s when we want to just, you know, to plow through and to say, I have to do something now, or to let someone else sort of drag you into that is just going to kind of keep you pinging back and forth between the sympathetic and the shutdown like, remember, the whole idea is that our nervous system is feeling so unsafe that it is going into shutdown mode. So the only way back is through. We have to bring just the tiniest bit of energy back into our system in a way that feels safe enough, and then see if we can do, like, mobilize from there.
Allison: I love that. Even, like, just even imagine reaching out to a friend. You know that that’s like, that feels doable? Yeah? Thank you for that.
Justin: Yeah. So we always like to address supporters here on the podcast that could be people living in the lives of caregivers. Could be people in a more formal role, like a medical professional, as opposed to friends and family, that kind of thing. So when you think about everything we’ve talked about, and I know you’ve with the co-regulation, I think that play certainly plays into this. But what can supporters know or do to help caregivers with this nervous system regulation stuff?
Jacqueline: I think a really helpful thing for caregivers to know is that you don’t have to be perfect at co-regulating. So you want to show up for caregivers, and you want to, you know, support them well. And sometimes maybe there can be this feeling of like, well, I don’t know what to say, I don’t know the right thing to say, I don’t know the perfect thing to do. And from the nervous system standpoint, really, we just need connection. We don’t need the perfect thing to say to us. We don’t need the perfect act of kindness. We need connection. And that is what supports our nervous systems in feeling regulating, regulated and coming back to regulation. An interesting statistic is that in order to be a good co regulator, you only need to, like, get it right 30% of the time, which is a pretty low bar. I think you know, in terms of being, I know this wasn’t the same question you asked, but just even in terms of being a co regulator for your person, that’s important to know too, because, of course, you want to support them well, but it, you know, it’s about, it’s about bringing awareness and and even naming it like, oh, I you know, I think when I called the called the other day and told you, you should try this, this, this and this, maybe that wasn’t so helpful. And I just want to say, like, I’m here for you and with you, and I know that that’s what you most need.
Allison: I think that’s because people say all the time, oh, I’m worried, especially because we do this sort of, like education for supporters, which is helpful. But I think it also leaves supporters being like, oh, that means there’s a right and a wrong way to do it. What if I do it wrong, and then I therefore do nothing. And so that, like, just 30% of the time right is huge. yes,
Jacqueline: And then to name it and to name it too, like to be, you know when, when things maybe don’t go quite right, to just say, Ah, I’m not sure how I showed up for you, but I really want to be here for you.
Allison: Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I have benefited so much because you and I have been working one on one together lately, and it’s all virtual, even though we are in the same city, and so you’re accessible to people everywhere, if people were interested in you know, so getting support from you, one on one. Can you talk about, is that accessible? And what’s your pay scale option and your accessibility for folks?
Jacqueline: Yeah. So I do all of my work virtually. I have a website called Yoga for resilience.com. This started during COVID, when everything moved online. And at that point, I think most of us who work in the yoga field thought, oh, this. How can you do this? How can you do this virtually? There’s so much that’s lost by not being in person. And what I discovered is, while there are absolutely wonderful benefits to being in person, being able to access yoga therapy from your own space. Can, for some people, be the ideal option, because either they have time or mobility limitations, or they maybe just feel most safe and comfortable in their own space. So I do my work online, virtually, and they can, people can reach out to me through my website, and I do have a Pay What You Can option. So my rates are listed on my website, but I really want to make sure that I’m not turning people away if they can’t pay the full rate. So I encourage people to look into that and you know, they have the option to choose their own right.
Justin: That’s great that you can offer that. And thank you, I don’t know, just thank you so much for being here. This has been a great conversation, just for me to listen to with how I deal with this in my own life. I’m looking forward to kind of take it all in again as I go through and edit the episode, and I just, I think this is going to be a good conversation for our listeners. So thank you for taking the time to be here.
Allison: It’s been so helpful to hear it, not just like in a, you know, a meme that goes scrolling past about our nervous systems or an article, but to really be able to apply this concept that we all sort of kind of know about to our caregiving lives, right? And I think that there’s, there’s been so many nuggets here of wisdom that you’ve shared. I want to share also. I’m so excited. I have been working with Jacqueline, and she is creating some original content for you caregivers that in the next few months will be available online. And so when you think about even those moments, that when you’re in the ER, or when you’re so down that you’re like, I can’t even access anything, that soon you will be able to, at the push of a button, have some access to Jacqueline herself and some of her tools. And so we are really grateful that you have agreed to do that, and we’re excited to release those in a couple of months. So thank you for the work that you do, but also for the work that you do, for caregivers and for seeing us in this way.
Jacqueline: I’m so glad to be able to do this, and so happy that we’ve connected. Allison.
Allison: Well, I think this probably won’t be the last we’ll hear from you, and we’re grateful for all the wisdom you shared with us today. So thanks so much.
Jacqueline: Thank you for having me.
Allison: All right. Bye.
Justin: Bye.