Transcript
You’re listening to In Sickness, a podcast about caregiving, with Allison Breininger and Justin Bajema.
Justin: Good morning.
Allison: Happy Saturday to you.
Justin: Yes.
Allison: Long weekend.
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: I’m happy about that.
Justin: Very happy about that. It’s very welcome. It’s been a, it’s been a good week, but it’s been a stressful week.
Allison: Yeah, what’s going on?
Justin: Well, part of it is like the calendar’s starting to fill up a little bit now that we’re like reuniting with everyone. So last, last Saturday, we went to one of my brother’s house and met at dinner with his family and those nieces, which was fantastic, but that, you know, took a lot out of Sarah. So she had to recover from that.
Justin: And then we’re doing that again with my other brother this evening. And then in a few weeks, we’re going to do that with Sarah’s brother and his family. So it’s just kind of been after so many months of just like nothing. Now there’s like, you know, things that, I mean, it’s not that these are hard things to do, but it’s just, you know, it’s even though Sarah is doing better than she has been, it’s still work to go and do something like that. It takes an extreme toll on her, which then there’s more for me to kind of care for after that.
Allison: For sure.
Justin: So that’s been going on. Moseyi’s been great, but we’re kind of in a little bit of trying to do some training and kind of work on some stuff. So she kind of fits in better with the family.
Justin: She’s not, it’s not like she’s terrible or anything, but just kind of working with her on some stuff. And I think it was you that told me that every dog owner has like a moment where it’s like, what did we do with getting a dog?
Allison: At least one moment, if not multiple moments.
Justin: Right, so there’s been some of that as well. And I know I’m trying to take like a long view of it that we’ve got a year. This next year is going to be a lot of work maybe to get us all to understand each other, but we’re going to have many years after that that are going to be wonderful. So it’s hopefully, hopefully worth it.
Allison: Yeah, I have a good friend who always says like, whatever stage you’re in right now is not permanent.
Justin: Right.
Allison: And so you will at some point get to the other side of the stage. And so she says a lot about like, she has a teeny tiny NICU baby. But I think I’ve been applying it to all kinds of parts of my life, right?
Allison: Like, yeah, because sometimes when you’re in it, you’re like, this is the only way it’s ever going to be. And the fact that my dog is doing this thing means that we’re doomed and it’s always going to be like this. And it’s like then a week later, you’re like, oh, oh, good. He outgrew that. Wish I hadn’t spent time worrying about that.
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: So this too shall pass, my friend.
Justin: Thank you. What about you? How are things going over there?
Allison: What you said totally resonates with me about the schedule. Like it’s interesting to like, like it’s a three day weekend and we have something scheduled each day, which feels partly awesome and partly like, I just kind of liked it when I had a whole lots of days with like nothing going on, you know? So that in last night after a number of different things, I was just like, why am I so tired?
Allison: And I was like, oh, I just have had so many more social interactions than I am used to, which is good. And also like, oh, interesting. I’m not used to this kind of tired.
Justin: Those are muscles that we have to kind of rebuild. Yeah.
Allison: Yeah. That social battery we talked about last time. Yeah.
Allison: And with that too, like, so yesterday I got a physical because it’s something that like, it was a couple months overdue, but I was like, I’m just going to wait till I’m fully vaccinated. And, you know, and so I know that feel like that’s another thing. Like now I’m like, okay, I’m going to go get Maya’s done.
Allison: I’m going to the dentist and like all this stuff that like before I was like, I think we’re, I think it’s okay putting that off a little bit. So yeah, so yesterday morning, I got a physical and in preparation for like in the morning, I just felt like super anxious, partly because you and I have talked about this before that when we’re so not used to having something be about us, that when we have to give our birth date, we always give our spouse’s birth date because we’re used to saying theirs. And so I had to think really hard, Allison, when is your birthday?
Allison: It’s so weird like going to the doctor and me being the patient. And then, of course, because I am surrounded by cancer, that of course, then in my mind, I was like, well, here go, they’re going to find all the things, even though it’s like I had no evidence for that, right?
Justin: Right. That’s not how anxiety works.
Allison: That is not how anxiety is not rational. So I went and it went great. And actually, the doctor was like, you’re taking really good care of yourself, which later Sean was like, how does he know? And I was like, well, I told him that.
Allison: But on paper also. And so that felt really good. I mean, I did like, he was great in letting me do extra. He’s like, you probably don’t need blood work. And I was like, let’s just do it. Because the more numbers that I can have that are like, you’re doing fine over there, Breininger, the better I can feel, you know?
Allison: So it felt really good to do that and to have a clean bill of health. And it kind of made me want to say to all those people who were like, are you taking care of yourself? Don’t forget to take care of yourself. To be like, ah!
Justin: Yes, I am.
Allison: I went to the doctor, and he said, I’m taking great care of myself. Because I was on this panel recently, and there was a social worker who was, you know, well-meaning and all the things. But said to a group of caregivers, said, you know, think about this.
Allison: If you don’t take care of yourself, you’re going to get sick. And then there will be no one to take care of you. And then there will be no one to take care of your spouse.
Allison: And then you’ll have to, no one will be there to take care of either of you. Think about that. So, friend, tell me, if you had been at that webinar and you had heard that message, how would you have reacted? What would that have felt to you?
Justin: Not great, for sure, at all. I mean, one, like, with my anxiety, that’s already something that surfaces up from time to time. But that’s an enormous amount of, like, pressure to put on someone who’s already completely taxed out, stressed about so many things, to then, like, put it in such, like, I don’t know, dire terms that, yeah, I think I would be angry.
Allison: Yeah.
Justin: And I would, and it may kick off, like, an anxious train of thought that, like, I didn’t need.
Allison: Right. Yeah. I felt angry to more for the others in the room, the, you know, virtual room, because I have learned to, I mean, not always, but I have learned to be like, yeah, that was not helpful.
Allison: You’re not going to file that one away, but I’ve done a lot of work around this, you know? And so I just felt angry that like a whole group of people who came to this caregiving webinar, that’s the message that they got. You know, and I think you’re right that when you say that word pressure, that really resonates with me, because it’s an incredible amount of pressure to be like, hey, you know how you’re already doing all the things?
Allison: If you don’t do them really well and take really good care of yourself, you’re all doomed. You’re doomed, your person’s doomed, the people who ever have to come and take care of your sorry selves are doomed. You know what I mean?
Justin: Well, and we’re also told that all of the toll that caregiving is putting on us and how it’s impacting our mental health, how it’s impacting our physical health and all of that. So it’s like, you have to take care of yourself or else, and this thing you’re doing, it’s harming you, so you extra have to take care of yourself? I don’t know.
Allison: I know, I know.
Justin: And you can do everything right to take care of yourself, and you can’t also control what’s going to happen to your health. So, like, it’s not helpful.
Allison: It’s not helpful. I just keep picturing a cartoon version of myself lying under a pile of boulders, that they’re just like, and then this, and then do this, and then do this, and I’m just underneath like, okay, okay, I’ll try. Because I think the extra thing that she added in there that really triggered me was that she basically was like, if you don’t do this, your person will also be doomed. So essentially, then she’s like, you’re a bad caregiver.
Allison: You’re going to fail at caregiving if you don’t take care of yourself. Like, oh, don’t you call me a bad caregiver. Those are fighting words. You know what I mean?
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: What are other, because that’s one of many, right? I just painted a picture of us with boulders on top of ourselves. Are there other ways in your life that you feel like? What are the pressures that you feel like you have?
Justin: Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, one thing that, several months ago, there was ME, which is one of the things that Sarah has. It was like Advocacy Week for that.
Justin: She got a whole week. Yeah, right. But it was like a targeted, like, trying to reach legislators and that kind of stuff, a lot of stuff around that.
Justin: So as part of that, they were looking for patients and caregivers to be part of groups, to like be on calls and tell their stories and talk to people in Congress or their staff and all of that. And, you know, I never have done any, like, advocacy stuff like that in all of the years. And I don’t know if it was because, you know, in the last year, Sarah’s actually gotten that diagnosis or in, you know, now I have a podcast where I talk about this stuff. And so, like, I’m a person who could talk about this. But, like, so I signed up for that. And the amount of anxiety I had leading up to those calls was enormous.
Allison: And I don’t know why I had put so much. One, I didn’t need to sign up for it. I mean, I do. I’m glad I did and was able to kind of talk about that. But I don’t know why I put so much pressure on myself to, like, get that anxious about it, because in the end, I mean, I had talked for five minutes, just kind of told my story. And then there was, you know, other people did the same thing.
Allison: And it wasn’t like a big deal at all. But it’s like, yeah, it doesn’t take a lot. Just like, oh, wait, why did I agree to this one more thing? I can’t back out of it. I, yeah, and then it just…
Allison: Yeah. So that’s interesting, because in that moment, you said you were putting pressure on yourself. And so do you feel like, I think this is like multifaceted in this moment, right? But you probably felt pressure to participate in the first place, right? Like, what was that? What was sort of going through your mind when you saw that there was that opportunity? Like, what sort of happened with like, I should or I shouldn’t or, you know what I mean?
Justin: Right. I mean, part of it is, you know, this is a illness that makes it incredibly difficult for the people who actually have it to participate. And so that was part of it.
Justin: The part that they were specifically also asking for caregivers, which that they were asking, acknowledging the caregivers and asking to be responsible, like, OK, well, that’s right. If they’re, you know, acknowledging me in my role, I should make sure that, you know, that’s seen.
Allison: Right.
Justin: And like the big push that they were going for is there was some legislation around the like COVID long haulers and how that ties into ME. And so it was it would say very like of the moment kind of thing. Like there’s a real thing that’s potentially happening to help Sarah and all of these other people.
Allison: Right, right.
Justin: And so it like there was definitely that sort of like call to action feeling around that.
Allison: Yeah. That’s like a trifecta right there.
Justin: Yeah, for sure.
Allison: And it’s interesting that what you said, especially that first piece about like the patients themselves probably can’t participate likely because of ME, right? And so that puts even more pressure on you. It’s not like, oh, well, either of us could probably do this.
Allison: It’s more pressure on you because like you are probably the one more able, physically able to be representative of that.
Justin: And it’s also like to, it’s not just that they were, you know, inviting caregivers to participate, but like it’s an opportunity to speak as a caregiver and acknowledge that to people in power who can make change.
Allison: Yeah, to see that like, hey, we’re caregivers.
Justin: Yeah, exactly.
Allison: And ME is a thing. And it needs, yeah, right. It’s so funny you bring that up because just yesterday, I had a phone call with a researcher, someone we know who has dedicated her life to researching fanconi anemia.
Allison: We’ve gotten to meet her and all the great things. And so she reached out and said, we’re applying for a grant, and part of our research team needs to have an advocate. And I thought of you and the advocacy work you do for caregivers and for FA, for fanconi anemia, and would you be interested?
Allison: And so I met with her and she was like, okay, it’s a meeting once a month for two hours. I said, okay, and for how long? And she said, for three years.
Justin: Oh.
Allison: Okay, cool. And then once a year, will you meet in person, but the advocates wouldn’t have to come in person if they don’t want to. And we’re working on there might be compensation, but there might not be and all this stuff.
Allison: And I said, you know, thanks so much. I’m going to think about this a little bit, and I’ll get back to you. And the pressure I felt in that moment was these are researchers who are specifically going to try to find prevention and also treatment for the exact cancer that my husband keeps getting.
Allison: And so their work may potentially save his life. And so then I was like, Allison, you can’t not do this thing that might potentially, down the road, save his life. So of course, I was like, yep, sure, I’d love to do it.
Allison: And of course, I mean, it’s an amazing opportunity, hopefully. And she did say, if you can’t do it, there’s other people I can ask. It was just you that I thought of first, which is a huge honor and all that stuff.
Allison: And she also said, sort of like with your situation, she said, and also I thought, caregivers, it would be great to have a caregiver, not just a patient, right? So yeah, but it felt this pressure of like, really, you’re going to say no to this thing that could lead to a cure, really?
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: So I said yes. And now I have an extra meeting every month. For three years.
Justin: For three years. I don’t know how it is for you, but in things like that, I think I can be too quick to agree to things in the moment, and then I have this panic afterwards when it’s like, oh, wow, this is going to be all of this stuff. Like a two-hour meeting once a month, like in a vacuum, that’s manageable.
Justin: But then all of a sudden, you put that on your calendar, and you’re like, oh, man.
Allison: Next to all the other two-hour meetings that happen every month.
Justin: Exactly. Yeah, and that very quickly can become overwhelming, not to make you feel overwhelmed about what you just agreed to.
Allison: Yeah, thanks, Justin. Awesome. I feel great.
Justin: Sorry about that.
Allison:There’s a chance they won’t get the grant, and certainly, of course, a thousand percent I want them to get the grant.
Justin: Absolutely.
Allison: But there’s a chance they won’t get it, in which case this won’t happen. But yeah, yeah. The other thing I just got, somehow even though I’m the ripe young age of 41, I get emails from AARP.
Justin: That’s lovely.
Allison: I know, it is. I think it’s probably because of some caregiving thing I’ve signed up.
Justin: I would imagine, yeah.
Allison: We’ll just say that’s why.
Justin: That’s why, yes.
Allison: Although I would love to be an RP, a retired person. Wouldn’t that be nice? Anyway, so last night I got this email from them that was like, family caregivers need your help or something.
Allison: And I was like, whoa, whoa. Like, I’m usually the one saying that. Like, who’s saying this to me?
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: And it was AARP, and they said that there’s something that’s like, I think, close to being passed about family caregivers getting a $5,000 tax rebate? Tax cut? Tax, I don’t know what it’s called, for being a family caregiver. $5,000.
Justin: That’s incredible.
Allison: But then, and it was, and even the language was like, they’re often like unseen, and they’re the backbone of this society. And I was like, those are my words. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Allison: But then it was like, please help us do this by contacting your congressperson and you know what I mean? And certainly, they’re good at trying to make those things as easy as possible for people, right? But again, it was just, it wasn’t, it was like this tiny moment of like, wow, something great is going to happen for me and other caregivers. And then it quickly went into like, if you do this work.
Justin: Right.
Allison: If you take steps, if you, if you, you know what I mean?
Justin: Does that feel kind of like a guilt trip is being put on you a little bit? I mean, I know that’s probably that’s not what they’re intending, but.
Allison: Right. Not so much a guilt trip. I just wish that it was like, don’t worry over there, caregiver, we got you. We’re going to go make this thing happen.
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: And certainly this email goes to everywhere. Everyone
Justin: Yeah. Right.
Allison: But it was sort of like, come on, can, can you all just click the button on my behalf and I can just reap the benefit here for once of this tax, tax credit. That’s what it was, a $5,000 tax credit. I’m excited it’s happening, but it also again felt like this pressure of like, okay, if I want this thing to happen for me and for caregivers, I got to find the congressperson and you know.
Justin: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. There’s just so many like sources of pressure. Like, I mean, one in just life in general, but like as caregivers, you talked about, you know, you have to take care of yourself. There’s the very apparent pressure of caring for the person that you’re caring for, which is like huge. And then like right now, as you know, we’re kind of as we’re vaccinated and kind of emerging and seeing people, there’s pressure to reconnect with all of these people that you haven’t seen for so long.
Justin: And that fills up your calendar. And, you know, you have a day where it’s nice and sunny. And so it’s like, well, I should go take advantage of that. And so you feel pressure to do that. And that can spoil the whole day in and of itself just because you feel pressure to find a way to do that. I mean, I even, so with Mosey, I was like, I got in my head this week that, you know, I need to work on her walking and train her to be great on a leash.
Allison: Right.
Justin: And worked myself into a lot of anxiety and stress about that, about having to do that feeling like that was all my responsibility. When in reality, she’s a 10-pound dog. That, yes, she can tug on the leash some, but I can manage it completely fine. I don’t need to put that pressure on myself.
Allison: Right, right.
Justin: So, yeah, and it’s, I find for myself, I end up putting a lot of pressure is things that I somehow come up with to put pressure on myself. I don’t know if you can relate to that or not.
Allison: Oh, my gosh, friend, yes, 100%.
Justin: Okay.
Allison: Have you met me? I guess you haven’t, really, officially. Right. But by now, you should know. Yes, that is 100% true. That’s what Enneagram 3s do.
Justin: Okay.
Allison: Is that we’re achievers, and so it’s always like, gotta keep going, gotta keep going, gotta do it. For sure. I was this morning, it’s Saturday morning, and I was spending some time this morning with my coffee and a notebook and just listing all the things that need to be done. And as I look back at the list, I’m like, Allison, you know what? Most of those things don’t really need to be done.
Justin: Right.
Allison: Why are they on that list? They don’t really need to be done. But I think I will feel better if they’re done, and I don’t know where that comes from, right? But yeah, it’s funny what you say about the sunny day. Maya, our daughter, loves rainy days because she… And this is a thing.
Allison: Actually, Glennon Doyle, the author, has a new podcast in her first episode, which is about anxiety. They talk about the beauty of rainy days because that’s how sunny days make you feel like you should be outside, you should be enjoying it. I suppose especially for people like us in Minnesota, where it’s always cold, and for you where it’s always rainy. When there is a sunny day, you need to be like, if you are inside, you are missing out, right? So even the weather gives us pressure.
Justin: Right.
Allison: When you were talking about the re-emergence, I think a pressure that I’m feeling around that lately is, you know, we’re always the strictest around, right? And so now, like, who knows what the rule book is? I just don’t even know. It’s hard to keep track. And so people are asking us a lot of questions and around like, okay, so we’re going to do this celebratory dinner. Is it okay with you if it’s at a restaurant?
Allison: Is it okay if it’s in a private room or not in a private room? Or do you want these people to wear masks? Or what if these people are, you know what I mean? And so the pressure is on, like, and I appreciate that they know to ask.
Justin: Right, it’s well-meaning.
Allison: It’s absolutely well-meaning. They want to make sure we feel comfortable, and I love that they’re not just like, show up at this day, here’s the thing, buck up if you don’t like it, right? But it’s a lot of pressure to be the one making those decisions.
Justin: Yes, absolutely.
Allison: And so I feel like that kind of thing is happening a lot. And then I have to do the mental calculus of like, okay, so wait, so how many people in what room, and are they vaccinated, and are they not? What does that mean for us? And then what day will Maya be fully vaccinated? You know what I mean, like all of those things. So a couple times recently, I have noticed people lifting that burden for me, and it feels so amazing.
Allison: So one day we had a friend who was going to help us with this fencing project. And so he had called another friend of his who was going to come over, and in the group text, our friend said to the contractor, let’s meet in the backyard, and let’s just all wear our masks. And I was like, thank you, thank you.
Allison: You know, or the other day we took a walk, Sean and I and the dog were taking a walk with a friend of ours, and the friend without us even saying anything was super conscious of like, if we walk this way, it’s a bigger hill up. And so if we want to, you know, have a slower, lesser slope, you know, we can go this way. Or a couple times, they would stop and say like, this is a longer path, this is a shorter path, you know what I mean?
Allison: And so without me having to do it or Sean having to do it, this friend was super conscious of Sean’s like, hip and fatigue and all of that stuff, and wasn’t just like, here we go on a trek, you know what I mean? And it was so great to have somebody else doing that and not me.
Justin: Right, that’s something great for the people in our lives, in the lives of caregivers to keep in mind as you’re, whether it’s inviting someone to something or setting something up, or whatever you’re doing, to keep that, to be conscious of inadvertently putting that pressure on us who are already over pressured.
Allison: Right, right. We recently were at the clinic, and I saw this woman, there’s a bank of elevators, and in the elevators, there are like four stickers in each corner, and it says, like, stand on your corner. But we have always been like, we’re just going to take our own elevator, you know, for the last year.
Allison: And so we were waiting in line for the elevator, and this woman was in front of us, and she was pushing her, I was assuming, elderly mother, and I saw her tell the people before her, go ahead, you just take that elevator. We’ll wait. So when the next one came, she sort of, and I could just see it.
Allison: I knew exactly what was going through her mind, that she’s like, okay, there are people behind me, enjoy this, and right. But if I keep saying, you take the next one, you take the next one, are we ever going to make it upstairs? And I could just see it, because I’ve had those internal conversations.
Allison: And so the elevator came, and I just said, would you feel better if you just took it by yourself? Why don’t you just take it? And she was like, well, are you sure? And I was like, yes. And I was like, we totally get it. And you could just see her shoulder sort of drop, like, thank you. And so moments like that were like, how can we relieve the pressure that a caregiver, or any human, is carrying around? Just a little, just a little.
Justin: Yeah, so that’s great to think about how to lessen that pressure for someone else. What do you do when you’re feeling all of the pressure to somehow, like, lessen that for yourself?
Allison: I think, I mean, one thing, like, sort of what I did this morning, where I sort of, like, just, like, write, I, like, make little buckets on my notebook. Because sometimes when it’s, I think people have called it, like, monkey brain. Like, it’s just the swirling.
Allison: And when it’s the swirling, then I’m like, it will never all get done. It will never, I just, ugh. And so if I write it all down and I say, what do I need to do at home? What do I need to do for work? What do I need to do for medical? Like, and I categorize them like that, then it’s like, oh, well, maybe this is actually okay.
Allison: And then I cross them off as they go. And I’m like, oh, that took like 45 seconds. But it was taking up so much space in my head. So sort of that piece helps, I think, delegating.
Justin: Right.
Allison: You know, like we’ve talked about that so many times.
Justin: I’m very bad at that. Yeah.
Allison: I’m pretty good, but that doesn’t mean the people around me like it.
Justin: Right.
Allison: But I think the delegating piece, I mean, like, okay, what on this list? Like, I’m going to ask the 14-year-old to mow the lawn. You know what I mean? Like, those things. I’d be like, okay, you don’t have to put all this pressure on yourself. Like, you can delegate a couple of things.
Allison: I walk a lot thanks to the dog. And I think that that helps, like, in the middle of a workday when I feel the shoulders getting higher and higher and higher. Sometimes I’m just like, I just gotta get outside.
Allison: I think the dog himself has actually been like a pressure release because he, as an Enneagram 3, I always feel like I should be doing something. But like, my very favorite thing to do, and actually we had a moment like this last night, is like, when we’re in the living room, Maya’s playing the piano, and I just sit there with the dog. Because somehow it feels like, like if it was just like me sitting alone in the room, I would be like, I should be doing something. But it feels like, you know, I don’t know, those are some of my favorite moments. And they don’t, you know, they don’t make it all go away, but they at least turn down the notch, like a little bit. You know, how about you?
Justin: Yeah, for me, sometimes writing down everything that’s in my head can have the opposite effect, because when it’s all in your head, yes, it’s stressful and everything, but like your mind is kind of jumping from a single thing to a single thing. And sometimes seeing all of the stuff on paper, like especially in that initial moment when you don’t have, you haven’t stepped back to see all of the stuff that like really doesn’t need to happen. Like it’s just an overwhelming moment of like, oh my goodness, there’s all of this stuff.
Justin: So that doesn’t always help me. But one thing I’ve found, so yesterday I was talking to my therapist, just going into this long weekend, just how I was feeling really stressful with like, it felt like it was all full of, you know, it was just going to be this busy weekend. And yeah, I was just very stressed.
Justin: And over the course of that hour, just like, okay, you know, one of the things I mentioned teaching Mosey to be a great dog on a leash, like, no, I don’t have to do that right now. And Sarah’s going to be resting after tonight for the next couple days. And so I can carve out an hour, an hour and a half probably on Sunday morning and on Monday morning. And I can go to a park somewhere or I can take Mosey for a nice long walk. And like I can, because for me, and I don’t with the weather here, it doesn’t always work out, but like getting outside, getting in the fresh air, getting in nature helps a lot. Somehow I find like just taking a sort of, I don’t know, like an observational posture, and just like sitting and like observing the surroundings somehow can be like really helpful for me.
Justin: And I don’t know if it’s something about, I mean, it’s definitely getting out of your head because you’re kind of taking yourself out of the picture and just kind of like taking in everything.
Allison: Yeah. Does that work for you? Would it work for you if you were even in your house or is it usually like if it’s in a different space?
Justin: No, it can, like looking at the window and kind of seeing everything that’s out there, yeah, I think. Without a window, I think it wouldn’t work. There has to be some amount of distance, and I don’t know why. I don’t know why, but I know if that can help.
Allison: For sure. In my work meetings, we often do like a little grounding in exercise at the beginning, and different people kind of lead that. And so someone did one recently that you’ve likely heard, because I think it is supportive of people who are having a panic attack.
Allison: And it’s like you say, like, what are five things you can see and name them to yourself, four things that you can feel, three things you can hear, two things you can smell or like to smell, and then one great thing about yourself. And so I’ve done that with a couple of groups lately, and it’s so interesting, because especially for the seeing one, just watch, you know, we’re on Zoom, right? Watching people’s eyes move around the room.
Allison: And it’s like it takes you, because we’re just so focused on these little darn screens all the time, right? And so just like, oh, and some people have said things like that, like I live in this beautiful outdoor space, and I never like pay attention to like, oh, I could hear these birds or I could see this tree. And so there’s something really grounding about that. I think it gets us into like our thinking brain, but it also gets us out of the like zone and into like, whoa, there are bigger things around me, you know?
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: So I have, I’ve been doing that a lot lately, and I appreciate that. And it’s like a nice little thing to have in your pocket.
Justin: Yeah. Well, you mentioning that that’s something that like helps for panic attacks. I mean, another thing that I do to help relieve when there’s a lot of pressure and all that, I mean, is medication.
Justin: Which doesn’t always work, but that is, and I can’t use that all the time, but that is certainly a tool that is there.
Allison: 100%.
Justin: That if you are a caregiver and you find yourself dealing with a lot of anxiety, there’s no shame in getting some chemical help.
Allison: For sure. Yep, and or depression.
Justin: Yeah, absolutely.
Allison: Like you and I talk a lot about anxiety, but I think same for depression.
Justin: Absolutely, yeah.
Allison: That was actually one of the things that prompted me to go to the doctor yesterday is because he was like, I had gotten a note from the pharmacy that said, you have to go back to the doctor if you want to renew your anxiety meds. I was like, oh, I see what you’re doing there. Sure. And so we were renewing the daily thing I take, but then also I have like an as-needed prescription. And he was asking me about that, and I said, you know what? I mostly just really like knowing that I have it.
Allison: You know, like I do take it sometimes, but it’s also like just the knowing that like, if I need this thing, I could take it, which makes me feel better, you know, which is probably classic, classic anxiety. I so appreciate that you, that this is a space that we can talk about this, that you casually are just like, yeah, I was with my therapist yesterday, that we’re able to talk about like, yes, medication is helpful, because I think so many of those things are said not at all, or like in hushed tones. Like, I was with my therapist, right?
Allison: And so like, but it’s like, so helpful. And for any human, and especially caregivers who are going through hard things, chronically hard things, right? And so I’m really glad this is a space that we can talk about and normalize some of that stuff.
Justin: Yeah, and I mean, I feel extremely fortunate that that’s, you know, not everybody has the time, or insurance doesn’t always cover that kind of stuff. And so, like, that’s a thing that needs to get fixed. But for me to have that, I don’t know how I would have survived the years of caregiving without those tools.
Allison: Yep, agreed. The other day on my NNegative Space social media page, I asked others, because a friend of mine, you know, we’re in Minnesota, we’re 10,000 lakes, land of 10,000 lakes. And so there’s like a lake on every corner, and she swims in one of the local lakes.
Allison: And this was like the first day of the year that she was able to jump in. And said that as she did, she just felt like everything releasing from her. And then it just felt amazing. And that she felt like it was like her, this full bucket was just like dumped in a good way, right? Just like, and so it made me think like, oh, I want something like that, without jumping a lake, you know? And so, so I put that out on my post and said, what other people do?
Allison: And it was so cool to see what people said. And my favorite one was somebody says, she goes into the backyard, she takes a big drink of water, she thinks of all the hard things, and then she spits the water out into the yard and just imagines all the negativity just like shooting out of her mouth with the water. And then she says, it’s gone. I was like, that’s not where I expected that to get to go. And I love it. Because we can all do it. You know what I mean? Like so easy, so visual, and like physical, like kinesthetic, too, to be like here goes.
Justin: Right.
Allison: A lot of people talked about like walking or running. I’ve never been a runner, but when I see people running, I’m like, I bet that feels really good. I bet that it feels like a huge release. I just don’t want to get to the point where I’m good enough at it. I don’t want to do the work to get to that point.
Justin: Good with walking. Yeah.
Allison: Yeah. A lot of people talked about nature, getting into nature, like you said, or animals or animals in nature. A lot of prayer, art, like a lot of painting or writing, podcasts somebody talked about.
Allison: Although I feel like for a podcast, for me, that fills my brain. You know what I mean? And so that helps in different ways. But I think in those moments, I need more of an emptying. But I was happy to see how many people were like, I’ve got a thing. I’ve got a couple things. And I was like, yes, good. We all need a toolkit full of these things.
Justin: What I find sometimes though is remembering the tools that I have in those moments is not always easy.
Allison: Totally.
Justin: And I think I’ve probably done this before. I couldn’t tell you where it is, but I’ve written down, when I feel this way, these are the things that I know help. And maybe that’s a good thing for me to do again and have that somewhere that I can see to remind myself that there are things that may help. And that’s not to say that they’re necessarily always going to work, but that kind of… I mean, you said something earlier about how things feel one way right now, but they’re not always going to stay that way.
Allison: Right.
Justin: And so that’s another… There’s always pressures, all kinds of pressures on us, and there’s moments where it feels insanely overwhelming. But one of the things that can help is just remembering that there have been times when it hasn’t felt as overwhelming as it does right now.
Justin: Because it’s real hard in those moments to get out of that and not just feel like this is how it is, this is how it’s always going to be.
Allison: For sure. For sure. Yeah, I think about even writing ourselves a note.
Allison: Right? To be like, you’re Allison, it might feel right now like this is the only way it is, and there’s no other way. And I want to tell you that that’s not the case, and what your feeling is temporary, and some things that you might want to try.
Allison: Because what’s happening in your brain, people can’t see me, but I’m pointing to the base of my neck, the base of your brain, that’s where your emotional brain is. And so when you get stressed, it gets flooded. And your thinking brain is up here by your forehead. And so when that flooding happens, you can’t get to your thinking brain. It’s trapped, it’s flooded, road closed. And so, yeah, it’s great, all those strategies, but those are easy to say on a nice calm day.
Allison: But yeah, in the moment, it’s just like, everything is terrible. This will never end, I don’t know what to do. And so I love that idea of calm day Allison, writing a note or making a video for pressure day Allison to be like, hey, there, it’s me. Just want to remind you of some things, you know?
Justin: I think another thing, I don’t know, that’s hard is that we’re, it’s so ingrained that we have to keep all of this to ourselves.
Allison: Yes, oh, for sure.
Justin: That like we have, yes, we’re feeling anxious and we feel the pressure from all the directions, but we have to interact with others and act as if like we’re on top of things and things are cool and we have control, we’re in control of the situation. Yeah, that’s hard.
Allison: That’s the negative space, man, right? Yes. You know, that we’re, all this stuff is untalked about it because, and I think about like, the first thing I had this moment of, I mean, like, we just talk about anxiety a lot too. Are we like the most anxious people ever? No, we’re just talking about it.
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: You know, like we are, like when every time I post about anxiety, people are like, yes, thank you. That’s how I feel. I didn’t know other people felt like that.
Allison: Right? But I think you bring up a really important point about, like, the energy it takes to continue functioning when you’re feeling like that is incredible. And so I think that as the world reopens, we’re going to have more, like, so let’s say tonight, you’re at your brother’s house, and let’s say for whatever reason you’re feeling anxious, you’re likely just going to be like, like, here I am. Hey, brother, let’s all talk. Right? Which is going to, which is hard in itself because that’s not a space you’ve been in physically for 15 months. And the extra energy it might take for you to be like, look at me, I’m smiling and cool and everything’s fine, you know?
Justin: I think another piece of that is just operating that way for so long, where you’re just holding all of that inside. Like, your body somehow, like, that’s, it has like a memory for that or something. So it’s like, it gets to that point and is there for some time before you realize anymore that like, oh, I am feeling super stressed and anxious.
Justin: It’s just like, it naturally goes to that point and you’re like, you get to the afternoon and you’re like, oh, wow, I’ve been like real stressed all day. And then it’s so much harder to try to like unwind all of that when it’s so far past the like point that it’s come on.
Allison: Totally. I keep finding myself, even when I’m like, quote, relaxing, that I notice I’m like, why are your legs all tight?
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: Like, you’re just sitting here, you know, and so I’m just like, trying to be more aware of that. I’d be like, even you’re just sitting here like, well, can you relax your legs? Your legs don’t have to do any work right now, you know.
Allison: But I think you’re right that like the threshold, like the fight or flight threshold for us is probably like so much higher than it used to be. And so like the amount that used to feel like too much, like so much. Now we’re like, oh, yeah, that’s just like a Tuesday.
Justin: Right.
Allison: You know, which is, yeah.
Justin: Yeah, it’s all so much. And yeah, I hope that, well, one, it’s, I always find having conversations like this are very helpful in like getting some of that pressure like off my chest, getting it out of my head, out of myself. So thanks for helping facilitate that.
Allison: Oh, gosh, of course.
Justin: Yeah, and hopefully in the coming week, there’s some, I can have some momentum from at least some of these ideas. And, you know, I like the idea of giving myself a new note to remind myself that like it’s not always going to be this way. And like here are two things you can do. So, so yeah.
Allison: Maybe that could be our homework. When we come back next time together, we can see if we’ve, although I don’t want to do homework. I was going to say, adding something to our list.
Justin: Let’s not do, let’s not call it homework.
Allison: No, no.
Justin: We don’t have to call it self care either.
Allison: No, it’s not. It’s just a check in about it.
Justin: A thing. Yeah, we’ll just check in. Yeah.
Allison: Cool. Well, on a side note, you said the other day that we are two downloads away from 3000 downloads.
Justin: Which feels pretty wild.
Allison: It does.
Justin: It always, yeah, because we just talk to each other, and it’s just like we’re having a conversation, and it just kind of goes out there. And yeah, it’s always incredible to…
Allison: People listen to it…
Justin: To know that there’s people listening to it. And I don’t know, when someone posts that they’re listening to it, or someone has… You don’t have to do this if you’re a listener. I’m not giving you homework or telling you you need to do this. But those moments when someone’s like, hey, thank you for doing this, or this has meant a lot. That’s incredible.
Allison: It is incredible. Yep.
Justin: Yeah.
Allison: Because for my own self, I will say that even if we just sat here talking and weren’t recording this, these are such powerful, helpful conversations for me. And so the fact that their support of other people just feels like this incredible bonus. So if you were one of those 3,000 people, or 3,000 download, you know what I mean.
Thank you. I don’t think they were all my mom. I know my mom downloads every one, but I don’t think she’s re-downloading it every time. So I think it’s more than maybe just my mom that’s out there listening. Well, let’s try to find ways to keep on, enjoy the moments we have in this weekend ahead, and this was a great way to kick off the weekend, so thanks for the conversation.
Justin: Well, thank you. Hope there’s some space for some pressure relieving or relaxation or whatever you want to call it for this weekend. Yeah.
Allison: All right. I’ll talk to you later, friend.
Justin: Sounds good.
Allison: Bye.
Justin: Bye.
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